DanT1999 is happily asserting imperfection

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The thought of reincarnation scares me. 6 months ago

This was a comment I had made under an entry written by the user “fateaccompli”, who recently deleted her account. Her original entry is unfortunately lost now, but this was a great philosophical discussion. I am reposting what I wrote here and what she replied to me as a comment because I just didn’t want this to be gone or forgotten… If anyone wishes to add to the discussion, please do…

The thought of reincarnation scares me.

I wouldn’t want to die and come back as someone or something else, because I don’t want to imagine existing in any other form without the memories I have now. Even for me, who can’t really figure out how to maintain long-term connections with people, I don’t want to imagine not knowing the people I know today or have known in the past. Even if my time with them is only in memory and that hurts, I wouldn’t want to let go of that. Existing without your memories is death because it’s not you anymore…

Reminds me of one of my all-time favorite movies called After Life where the premise is that heaven is the one memory you would want to relive for eternity…



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DanT1999 is happily asserting imperfection

premise in After Life reminded me of Camus' The Stranger

EDIT:This was the comment that the user “fateaccompli”, who recently deleted her account, left in response to what I wrote above. I thought what she wrote (like most anything she wrote) was intriguing, and I didn’t want to see it disappear. Feel free to comment if it seems interesting…

premise in After Life reminded me of Camus’ The Stranger

remember the discussion he has with the priest who has come in to hear his last confession, etc? Meursault tells the priest that he doesn’t, in effect, care about any other kind of life but the one he has lived, and if he had the choice, he’d live his exact same life over and over for all eternity.

I even once had a dream that, well it was more like Groundhog Day, my family and I were stuck in the same day for all eternity. and after initially being upsetting and a bit scary what the hell’s going on here?, it became a peaceful and happy thing, to always know what to expect etc.

but I have been thinking about that dream for a long time it was several years ago and I worry about the truth in “repetition is hell”.

was it Camus? or Nietzsche? or hmmm… something about, what if your afterlife was reliving your present life for all eternity? if you can find peace/joy in your life, then you will experience this as heaven. if not, you will experience it as hell. and really, it’s up to you (and how you live now).

I had never thought about any of this in conjunction with reincarnation before, though. I thought of it more as a clean slate, a sort of innocence. I guess that’s just gloss, however. or maybe, after you’ve lost your memories, you are innocent and a bit clueless. it’s contemplating such a possible loss that unnerves and disorients you. not that being born as a different person or creature wouldn’t be disorienting in and of itself. actually, maybe having previous memories would make your “new” life seem all that more unnatural and upsetting?

hmmm…

there’s absolutely no guarantee that you’ll end up being the “same” you even if you have the same nature, reincarnated. your circumstances will be different, etc.

even if you the right now you, not a reincarnation had been born in a different country or in a different time period, you wouldn’t be the you you are now. close, maybe. maybe not all that close at all.

I was speculating once about how maybe your as in, anyone’s purpose in life is to realize who you are a simple yet monumental task , but you are always changing you always have the possibility of changing, in some small or big way, for better or worse or just different . the only time you stop changing is when you die, and even then that’s just because “you” are in the past; it’s your history or your lifetime that cannot change any more now. if your soul etc continues on in another venue, then that, which is really “you”, might go on changing, and so you might be different than you were in life, which is a very odd thought.

but then again, in What Dreams May Come , Robin Williams’ character and his wife willingly leave heaven to be born again and live their lives and come to know themselves and find each other again, with complete confidence that it will happen, that it is fated to happen, even though they will not be the same exact people in the same circumstances as before. with complete confidence and joy.

I always thought that was the most brilliant and bewildering thought of the whole movie.

thanks for the thoughtful comment, Dan. we always start some interesting discussions :D

Life changes

I have many thoughts on spirituality and the afterlife. Some of what I think might seem offensive or sacreligious to some people. But it comforts me to a depth that no religious teaching I ever recieved did.

The trouble with discussing such matters is that you have to find out what your assumptions are, and where your common beliefs lie before you can move forward. For example, you mentioned a fear of death. That is not something I relate to. I am not afraid of dying at all. I try to stay alive and healthy because I have work to do and children to care for, but I have no investment in protecting or maintaining any sort of eternal sameness in myself. I rather value change.

I am not the same person I was when I was four. I have different tastes now, different knowledge, different beliefs, and I don’t look much the same either. Yet I still see myself as “me”. I still remember being four, and having feelings and experiences which have colored who I am today. So which is it? Am I still that same girl, or am I someone else now? Should I regret that change has happened? Should I have feared that change would happen? What about the future? Should I fear that changes are still bound to happen to me with every passing decade?

I hope I do not sound rude. These are not just rhetorical questions. They are to help me establish what you mean when you say you have a fear of death, and a fear of taking on a new life through reincarnation. I do not understand how those concepts are different to you than other life changes.

DanT1999 is happily asserting imperfection

I don't know if this will make sense to you...

But here goes… First, I will say that I am rather agnostic in my beliefs. Whether or not there is a higher power that is more than indifferent toward the status of human life or other forms of life is in my opinion unknowable. I do not believe in an afterlife, but at the same time I do not discount the possibility that one may exist. Actually, I believe that it is impossible to know if one exists or in what form it exists without dying and finding out for oneself. I think that contemplating the afterlife makes for some interesting and revealing philosophical discussion, but I do not view it as anything more than theory. Because I can see no evidence that an afterlife does exist, I assume that one does not exist. I do not want to believe in something unless I am sure it is real. I need to have proof.

I couldn’t find specifically where I might have said “death scares me”. The act of dying itself I don’t find scary. Maybe the thought of either a violent death or a slow, wasting away sort of death scares me because pain scares me. Dying itself doesn’t scare me, but the thought of not knowing what happens next does scare me. I think what makes life worth living is the possibility of tomorrow, of learning new things, experiencing new things, the possibility of change and being aware of it. The thought that all this will stop is what scares me.

You wrote about reincarnation as being nothing more than another type of life change, like growing up from being a child to an adult. To me this is fundamentally not the same thing. I didn’t think of it on this level before, but I realize that my concept of being involves memory. In fact, I would go so far as to say that we are our memories. Nothing of who we are, nothing of what we experienced is worth anything or means anything if we can’t remember it.

In your example, I would say that you are the same person you were when you were a little girl but a more developed one because you have more memories and experiences. You are the same because of the memories you retain, and what defines you are your memories. The future and the change it brings do not necessarily need to be feared. I would only fear losing the memories of what got me there. Reincarnation, as I understand it, would be a type of change where you lose your memories and start over completely. It is change without awareness, the opposite of the type of change that I said makes life worth living. You are equal to your memories; therefore, you lose your memories you lose yourself and your identity. Losing my identity is what scares me…

Oh, I see!

That makes a lot of sense. So you fear losing your memories, and in pretty much every reincarnation story we ever hear it is rather the point that the person feels some slight connection to the previous life, but generally does NOT retain most of the memories from that life.

Would I be right to assume then, that you would be equally afraid of having any sort of brain injury which would rob you of your memories?

I will volunteer something

Here is my take on the spirit world. I do not need at all for anyone else to believe it, but it absolutely makes sense to me, and I’m cool with it. So I hope you take it as it’s meant—just an exchange of ideas.

I think the spirit of life is like water. Everything that lives, everything that exists is like a drop of that water. Sometimes water appears in different forms like ice or steam, but it is still fundamentally water. Sometimes a drop of water has other ingredients, like mud, or chicken noodle soup, or cytoplasm, but it is still connected in a very fundamental way to all other drops of water.

Water continually recirculates. A drop of water in my blood will eventually be filtered and released as urine, and then join the water in a sewer, and then may eventually reach the ocean, the clouds, the rain, the reservoir, the tap, and the chicken noodle soup I’m cooking for my children.

That is what I think reincarnation is like. I believe that we may change our state, or our ingredients may alter slightly, but I do not believe any drop in the ocean grieves for it’s lack of identity as a separate drop, nor does it miss terribly the great life it used to have being noodle soup. Sometimes as water is changing it might retain a diluted memory of some of its previous ingredients, but it is the water which is fundamental, not the specific ingredients.

I think that’s where you and I have different ideas. You define yourself by your memories, which are the metaphorical “ingredients” of life. I define myself by the thought that I am spirit, whatever memories might be swirling through me at the moment.


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